WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript <www.descript.com>

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Elizabeth: There we go.

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Olivia: Okay, great.

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Elizabeth: Sorry about that.

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Thanks for setting this up.

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[Olivia laughing]

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Olivia: Good morning.

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It's not morning so much morning
on your side anymore, is it?

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Elizabeth: I don't know.

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It feels like morning.

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I haven't had lunch yet.

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So does that count?

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Olivia: Oh,

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okay.

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[both laughing]

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Elizabeth: Yeah.

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How are you doing?

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Olivia: I'm okay.

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I'm okay.

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Um, yeah, it's been a while since our
last conversation, you know, and I

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read that book that you recommended.

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What is it?

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Hearing Beethoven?

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Elizabeth: Yes!

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Oh, I need to email Robin again.

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I'm, I'm worried I sent it
to the wrong email address.

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So I'm going to make a note
of myself to email him again.

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[both laughing] Or did
you get in touch with him?

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Olivia: I didn't.

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You know I just wanted to like, ask
you what you thought would be the

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best way, 'cause you know, like.

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If people get cold emails, cold
calls or whatever, it usually

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just kind of gets lost in there.

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Elizabeth: Yeah, I, I know him and
since I do like music and disability

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study group stuff, um, I think like it
wouldn't be weird for me to introduce you.

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I had, I heard from, because I
sent an email and I heard from

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somebody else, oh yeah, Robin
always answers email right away.

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So I'm going to double check
that I didn't make a mistake

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because it's been known to happen.

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Like leave an email, like a
letter out of the email address.

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Olivia: Right, right, right, right.

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Elizabeth: The other one
I have been known to do is

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Olivia: Yeah, I've got
my own copy of it, so.

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Elizabeth: Oh,

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awesome.

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Olivia: Yeah.

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You know, I'm so glad you reintroduced
it to me because the first time I read

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it, it was like an intro kind of, it was
before it was published, so it was just

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one article, which is just kind of like
out of the blue, and I sort of Um, you

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know, it was like, not out of the context,
but the project itself was kind of funky.

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It's this guy, this Belgian guy, and
he's just like obsessed with fidelity

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to history, and they rebuilt this
whole Broadwood you know, they had

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some really expensive technology to
like measure the vibration of the

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air, the ground, the table, the this
and that, and they concluded, yes!

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Oh, well, they reconstructed the Broadwood
pianos so that they can rebuild all this

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kind of auditory enhancing ideas, sketches
that they saw in Beethoven's Notebook.

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And then, you know, and they
do all that stuff in the end.

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They're like, yeah, it sounds like this.

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To the hearing people.

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Isn't that kind of totally
ignoring the elephant in the room?

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Elizabeth: It's not giving you like any of
the information you actually need to know

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what this did for Beethoven's hearing.

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Olivia: Right, right.

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Elizabeth: Oh my goodness.

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Yeah, I don't think I'd followed
that whole thing like just how much

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effort they put into it to have
such a dramatic fail at the end.

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[laughing]

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Olivia: Right.

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It just felt like, well, didn't
you kind of miss the point?

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[laughing]

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Elizabeth: 100 percent

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Olivia: (Right).

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Robin Wallace's book, because he was
really with his wife, you know, his,

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his former wife,  at the whole stage of.

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And I can relate to, you know,
a lot of that, that the process,

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but with the implant, etc.

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But, um, I'm currently started
in this class, um, taught by

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my friend, it's called pianism.

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And I'm like, what the heck is pianism?

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And he's, he's this guy, he like oozes
piano out of his pores, you know, and

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he really thinks about the pianos a lot.

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So it's really delving into the piano as
a body, piano as a prosthetic, piano as

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a voice, you know, piano as a conduit.

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So it's really exciting and it
was kind of like bringing me

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back to to this book as well.

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So, um, yeah, you know, I have not written
a paper paper, you know, and it looks

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like they're not, you know, asking for
us to explain or, um, So there's a couple

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of papers on on Leonardo that Vanessa
told me just kind of like go through.

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Elizabeth: Yeah.

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Olivia: And,

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um, so let me see.

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Elizabeth: Sorry, trying to get comfy with

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my back.

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Olivia: [laughing] Okay wait.

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I

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have so many screens, I get confused.

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Elizabeth: Oh, I know that.

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I know that voice.

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Olivia: Hey,

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de

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de-duh

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de-duh.

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Yeah, while I'm fussing around here, I
copy-pasted some like very, very vague

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notes that I made to myself in, um, you
know, the, the content for, for our, um,

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Elizabeth: Yeah!

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No, that was really helpful.

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Although part of me is like, oh shoot,
I should look at this even sooner

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next time because you've got a lot
of really interesting ideas in here.

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Olivia: Oh!

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Um, I'm just looking for,

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Elizabeth: well and some of this reminded
me a lot of like Christine's son, Kim.

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Olivia: Oh, okay.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have been
following Christine's son, Kim,

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you know, but, um, it's just I, I

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just kind of

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Elizabeth: But you're like going
well beyond a couple of these ideas.

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Um, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

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Olivia: No, hold on.

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I'm just trying, trying
to find where I put my

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Elizabeth: Oh, do you want me to
drop the notes that I have into Chat?

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Or are you looking for different ones?

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Olivia: I got it, I got it.

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Because, you know, sometimes you
make stuff and then you forget where

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you saved them.

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Elizabeth: Always.

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I do that always.

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Olivia: It

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may be in pager, so
I'll just go to Recent.

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I found it.

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Got it.

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Okay.

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So, um, yeah, I'll just let you
respond off to the mishmash.

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I wrote [laughing] . See if you
finding some kind of connection.

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Elizabeth: Yeah.

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Um, no, I don't think
it's a mishmash at all.

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I mean, I think it makes
a lot of, a lot of sense.

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There's certain things
I don't know much about.

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Um, ASL is one of them.

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Mm-Hmm.

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Still kind of learning a lot, but
the idea of performativity of sound.

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Even beyond dance was really interesting.

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Can you say more about what you
were thinking about that one?

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Olivia: Mm-hm.

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Um,

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I guess it comes down to
the last thought that I had.

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Can you create topological imagination
or analogies with with sound?

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You know, because at the very beginning
of this project, you know, I was also

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learning more about the Deaf culture and
ASL and, um, naively saying, Oh, okay.

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Conducting is a, is a, is an expression
of sound with gesture and vocabulary.

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ASL is sound, but it's not about
sound, you know, and I could get

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into trouble for saying that.

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[laughing] so, um, um.

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Yeah, so I'm trying to like, reach it
out to like a broader, um, a broader,

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uh, concept of, you know, what is ASL?

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It is communication, and music is also
communication, um, and, but then I also

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feel that they're both very spatial,
and they reach into this kind of, um,

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so that's where I'm being very kind of.

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I don't have the words for it, but
I feel like you're almost shaping

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sound, you know, shaping a landscape
with your body and with the hand, and

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it's a performativity, you know, um,

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Elizabeth: Yeah,

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Olivia: someone told me about
VV, which is visual Vernacular.

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Are you familiar with that?

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Elizabeth: I am not but I'm writing it
down so I can be more familiar later.

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Olivia: So Visual Vernacular is, is
not a sign language vocabulary, but

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I think it is a theater practice.

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And in a way how they are able to express
a whole story, this really complicated

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story, with no words, no spoken anything.

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It's always gestures, you know, spatial.

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Like someone might say, you know,
I went into another space just

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by recognizable things that we
would know about our environment.

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And, uh, so my friend has sent me a
few, uh, there's like a lot of, uh,

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YouTube, um, and examples of that.

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There's is a guy who's like gotten
a pretty good following for it

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and I mean, it's not new, you
know, it's been around for A bit.

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And that's just to kind of sort of
circulates back to me about that.

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And then this this this relationship,
a spatial relationship we have with

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the, for example, an instrument, and
piano in particular, to kind of such

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a huge instrument, you know, it's not
like a violin or a flute or a cello,

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you can't put your arms around it.

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And in a way you're sort of
gesticulating this space in front

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of it, you know, except for the
little keyboard only contact you

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have with this tiny little fingertip.

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Elizabeth: I know that
there's some research.

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I don't have it in front of me, but I
know of the existence of some research

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where they've done studies where they
show people someone playing piano, and

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they can predict whether or not they
are a good piano player, based on their

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gestures without any of the sound.

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Olivia: Wow.

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You mean like

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Elizabeth: because there's like
a visual language to the piano

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playing, and that could be, that
could be really interesting.

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The other thing that you made me think
about was, like, yeah, I understand

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your reticence with, you know, ASL isn't
shaping sound, but I'm really curious

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about, like, music interpretation of ASL.

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Because I know they do a lot with, like,
dynamics, like the size of the sign and

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the amount, like, the planes that they're
taking up does have musical analogs, and

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especially folks who are not just signing
the words, but are trying to get, like,

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the whole musical language, um, that could
be really interesting because there's

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people that talk about like signing
differently trying to make like fatter

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signs for rounder timbres, for example,
like if if a bass is playing a solo,

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they will try to sign it differently than
if a guitar is because like the pitch

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and timbre is different.

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So I wonder if there's something
in, um, sign interpretation music.

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I don't know.

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I'm spitballing and reflecting
some things that I'm hearing.

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Please definitely tell me if they're not
helpful because I will not be offended.

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Olivia: No, no, no,

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no, no, no, I think it's just
helping me think out of the box.

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Um, you know, because the, the,
the, the people who I've reached

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out to who are fluent in sign
language, they generally think of

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sign language in in terms of words.

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Elizabeth: Yeah,

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it's linguistic.

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Yeah.

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Olivia: Right.

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It's linguistic.

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It's, it's because, um, that's
what it is to them, right?

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Yeah, it's really, and then so if they,
uh, so for example, you know, the,

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the, the piece that I'm, I'm using to.

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As a soundboard--[laugh] soundboard-- is
uh Beethoven's Ode to Joy, um, because,

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um, well, it's also, I'm really inspired
by the story that, um, Helen Keller had,

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um, wrote, she wrote a letter, I think,
to the New York Symphony about her, like,

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revelational experience, um, feeling,
uh, or touching, uh, the, the Ode to Joy,

00:13:09.780 --> 00:13:14.250
because they had a radio and there was a
performance that was broadcast and she,

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but she has, you know, much more, um,

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Elizabeth: That tactile

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sensitivity

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Olivia: Tactile sense, you know, as
a non-seeing person, whether or not

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how she, you know, she could pick out

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the different timbre and
instruments and layers of sounds.

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And so, so part of the CripTech, so
the CripTech, um, project, it ends up

00:13:36.095 --> 00:13:41.635
having, um, I've sort of broken up to
three movements and the third movement,

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I'm working with a, um, a coding guy who
is helping me to translate, um, sounds

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to, uh, haptic, haptic experience.

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So whether that haptic part, translating
to the haptic sensor is easy, the easy

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part, but how is that going to manifest?

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Is that going to manifest as an object
that, you know, the, the, the viewer or

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the user, they hold it and they experience
it through their hand, they can put it on

00:14:09.903 --> 00:14:15.730
their body, or do we try to make it like
a sort of a wearable that, you know, like

00:14:15.749 --> 00:14:21.675
this, then it's, You know, maybe draped
around the neck and shoulder or something.

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It becomes a little more
visceral and body on the body.

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Elizabeth: Yeah.

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Olivia: Um, but sure, you know,
we're utilizing um, Ode to Joy.

00:14:32.834 --> 00:14:37.485
And so I wanted to try different levels
of sound so that the instrumental, and

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there's the vocals, my friend can separate
them so we can separate a some recording.

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So, and then I reached out to a signer.

00:14:48.024 --> 00:14:53.984
I thought, well, could you sign, um,
the, the, uh, the, the vocal part

00:14:54.115 --> 00:14:55.935
because the lyrics, it's, it's a poem.

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And so, you know, but for her
and she, she signed it in a very,

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um, linguistic way, you know.

00:15:04.704 --> 00:15:04.895
So.

00:15:04.895 --> 00:15:11.564
But maybe, maybe it's kind of interesting
to ask her to maybe not think about the,

00:15:12.135 --> 00:15:17.595
the actual words and think about the
feeling of the how the words are sung,

00:15:17.775 --> 00:15:21.295
you know, or maybe just play the German
verse right so she had no idea what

00:15:21.295 --> 00:15:27.804
is being said, but sign, according to,
you know, the vocal, the feeling that

00:15:28.365 --> 00:15:31.145
comes from it, or something like that.

00:15:31.835 --> 00:15:36.315
Elizabeth: What I wonder, have you,
um, connected with any musicians,

00:15:36.395 --> 00:15:38.185
any deaf musicians who sign?

00:15:39.615 --> 00:15:40.275
Olivia: That's pretty

00:15:40.275 --> 00:15:41.495
hard, right?

00:15:41.495 --> 00:15:43.204
Elizabeth: Yeah, there's
not a lot of them.

00:15:43.405 --> 00:15:44.065
Olivia: Right.

00:15:44.634 --> 00:15:49.435
Um, so the person who, um, had been
signing for me, she was actually a

00:15:49.485 --> 00:15:54.935
dancer, but, um, yeah, but she's not,
she's not a musician, but she reacts

00:15:54.935 --> 00:15:58.125
to music in, in a, in a movement way.

00:15:58.125 --> 00:15:58.375
Elizabeth: Yeah.

00:15:59.305 --> 00:15:59.475
Olivia: Yeah.

00:15:59.495 --> 00:16:02.655
So that's, that's a, that's
a really great overlap there.

00:16:03.504 --> 00:16:09.910
Um, I, I, through the grapevine,
I know of, um, Gabriella

00:16:09.910 --> 00:16:11.890
Elizabeth: Oh yeah.

00:16:12.680 --> 00:16:14.060
Olivia: Gabriella Nina Frank.

00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:14.690
Do you know her?

00:16:15.790 --> 00:16:17.269
She's a composer.

00:16:17.870 --> 00:16:18.770
Elizabeth: Um, I don't know her.

00:16:18.800 --> 00:16:19.830
I don't know her personally.

00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:20.709
I know of her.

00:16:21.109 --> 00:16:22.130
If that makes sense.

00:16:22.250 --> 00:16:22.630
Olivia: Oh.

00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:25.560
Um, yeah, she's, she's hard of hearing.

00:16:25.610 --> 00:16:31.830
Um, and it turns out that she, uh,
had the same teacher, uh, way back

00:16:31.830 --> 00:16:33.150
when she went to the conservatory,

00:16:33.150 --> 00:16:37.049
she had the same teacher as, as,
as my piano teacher's husband.

00:16:37.290 --> 00:16:38.420
I'm like, Oh my God.

00:16:38.790 --> 00:16:39.820
Elizabeth: Oh, cool!

00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:45.420
Olivia: So, um, yeah, it's like a
very thin thread, but I'm hoping

00:16:45.420 --> 00:16:49.610
that's kind of a connection that
could, um, I could reach out to her.

00:16:49.890 --> 00:16:53.200
Interview her perhaps about her thoughts.

00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:55.370
Um, she, she's also a pianist.

00:16:57.130 --> 00:16:58.990
But I don't know what
I'm going to ask her.

00:16:59.910 --> 00:17:00.100
Elizabeth: It

00:17:00.100 --> 00:17:03.180
looks like she's Composer in
Residence with Philadelphia right

00:17:03.180 --> 00:17:04.710
now, Philadelphia Orchestra.

00:17:06.600 --> 00:17:07.289
Olivia: Oh, okay.

00:17:07.540 --> 00:17:07.820
Okay.

00:17:07.870 --> 00:17:09.000
Elizabeth: I, um,

00:17:13.610 --> 00:17:15.750
I was going to say, I can try.

00:17:16.230 --> 00:17:23.300
Um, I was also thinking of
like Wawa Warren Snipe, uh,

00:17:23.310 --> 00:17:25.700
who is the founder of Dip Hop.

00:17:25.710 --> 00:17:28.270
He was trained in theater at Gallaudet.

00:17:30.690 --> 00:17:34.970
I don't think that's going
to come across in the G-A-L-L

00:17:35.165 --> 00:17:39.495
you know, I'm going to type.

00:17:41.635 --> 00:17:42.895
I'm just going to type.

00:17:43.225 --> 00:17:44.215
Olivia: Sometimes it's really

00:17:44.215 --> 00:17:46.165
Elizabeth: Because I'm also like,
I'll probably spell it wrong.

00:17:46.165 --> 00:17:46.915
Olivia: Oh, here it is.

00:17:46.915 --> 00:17:47.155
Elizabeth: Yeah.

00:17:48.845 --> 00:17:50.275
He trained in theater there.

00:17:50.755 --> 00:17:54.265
He's the creator of Dip Hop,
which is Deaf Hip Hop as a genre.

00:17:55.314 --> 00:17:57.354
Um, he's now an actor.

00:17:57.355 --> 00:17:58.245
Olivia: Mm hmm.

00:17:58.625 --> 00:18:03.325
Elizabeth: And, um, he signed The
Star Spangled Banner and America the

00:18:03.325 --> 00:18:07.054
Beautiful in 2021 at the Super Bowl.

00:18:07.514 --> 00:18:13.454
And last year, 2022, he and
Sean Forbes did, um, like they

00:18:13.454 --> 00:18:16.230
performed for the halftime show.

00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:20.320
They interpreted, but it was
like a musical interpretation

00:18:20.370 --> 00:18:21.520
because they're both performers.

00:18:22.570 --> 00:18:23.600
He could be interesting.

00:18:23.610 --> 00:18:30.450
I also have a colleague who is an
expert in Helen Keller and music.

00:18:30.730 --> 00:18:33.629
Like that's what his dissertation
was on and his first book

00:18:33.629 --> 00:18:34.820
is going to be about that.

00:18:35.380 --> 00:18:35.540
Olivia: Wow!

00:18:35.540 --> 00:18:38.590
Elizabeth: From the music and social
justice series for Michigan Press.

00:18:39.629 --> 00:18:43.520
His name is Stefan Sundenan Honisch.

00:18:44.205 --> 00:18:45.895
That's not going to come across right.

00:18:46.245 --> 00:18:50.694
Um, that's his last name in the chat.

00:18:52.585 --> 00:18:55.745
And I could also set, send an email.

00:19:00.734 --> 00:19:03.855
I was trying to see if he has a
website, I could grab quickly.

00:19:07.215 --> 00:19:09.775
But he is a disabled pianist and composer.

00:19:10.795 --> 00:19:12.275
I don't think he

00:19:16.365 --> 00:19:19.225
he's never talked to me about
being deaf or hard of hearing.

00:19:19.925 --> 00:19:24.469
But he would know a lot about the
literature around Helen Keller

00:19:24.540 --> 00:19:28.480
and, um, that sort of thing, which
could be kind of interesting.

00:19:28.949 --> 00:19:34.169
That's not his primary
website, but that is a website.

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:36.679
Um,

00:19:37.329 --> 00:19:38.659
Olivia: so he's a pianist as well.

00:19:39.169 --> 00:19:40.059
Elizabeth: Yep, he's a pianist.

00:19:40.620 --> 00:19:40.949
Olivia: Okay.

00:19:41.009 --> 00:19:41.409
Okay.

00:19:47.179 --> 00:19:51.250
Elizabeth: And he works a
lot more on blind pianists.

00:19:52.070 --> 00:19:52.590
But.

00:19:55.085 --> 00:19:55.755
Olivia: That's not good.

00:19:55.785 --> 00:19:56.305
Elizabeth: You know,

00:20:01.595 --> 00:20:03.965
just trying to see if I can
find any other sites for him.

00:20:14.115 --> 00:20:17.285
Anyway, yeah, I can, I introduce
you to him in a heartbeat.

00:20:17.295 --> 00:20:18.295
He's fantastic.

00:20:19.165 --> 00:20:19.855
Um,

00:20:23.694 --> 00:20:26.695
in part because yeah, when you're
thinking about piano, I'm not trained as

00:20:26.715 --> 00:20:32.485
a piano player, but I know that that's a
really very specific embodied practice.

00:20:32.705 --> 00:20:32.875
Olivia: Mm-hm.

00:20:32.875 --> 00:20:32.975
Mm-hm.

00:20:32.975 --> 00:20:38.544
Elizabeth: Um, from the perspective
of conducting there definitely is a

00:20:40.705 --> 00:20:42.875
like a visual language to it, right.

00:20:42.915 --> 00:20:48.385
Um, and there's a sense in which you're
shaping sound and it's a conversation.

00:20:48.395 --> 00:20:53.795
It's kind of a fascinating one because
other people are making the sound

00:20:53.815 --> 00:20:55.284
and you're telling them what to do.

00:20:55.455 --> 00:20:57.274
So there's a power dynamic there.

00:20:57.954 --> 00:21:05.030
Um, and at different times
you're responding to the sounds

00:21:05.030 --> 00:21:08.790
that you're hearing by changing
what you're giving them.

00:21:09.790 --> 00:21:15.280
So the same conductor will not look
the same in any given performances.

00:21:15.850 --> 00:21:19.739
Um, like she'll have to change what
she's doing to get different sounds

00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:22.309
out of the orchestra, depending on
what they're doing in this space.

00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.369
But that, I mean, that could
be interesting too, thinking

00:21:25.369 --> 00:21:27.469
about it from that perspective.

00:21:29.439 --> 00:21:33.859
But yeah, there's a lot of fantastic
deaf dancers that have various

00:21:35.210 --> 00:21:38.880
Like your friend, that have various
levels of hearing and I, you

00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:40.270
know, part of me always wonders

00:21:41.510 --> 00:21:45.870
if they all have different ways
of interacting with music, or,

00:21:46.070 --> 00:21:46.830
Olivia: Yeah,, I don't know.

00:21:47.620 --> 00:21:49.880
Elizabeth: But I'm glad I'm glad
you have a deaf dancer that you're

00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:52.670
working with as a signer because
that's got to be really fascinating.

00:21:53.270 --> 00:21:54.629
Olivia: Yeah, yeah.

00:21:54.679 --> 00:22:04.360
So I guess because I, I'm, I'm lucky that
I know her but I also am not knowing how

00:22:04.360 --> 00:22:10.689
to direct her, you know, how can I make
this this conversation, more interesting.

00:22:10.999 --> 00:22:14.389
'Cause, uh, Yeah, because I
haven't, I don't have a whole

00:22:14.389 --> 00:22:15.489
lot of experience with that.

00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:18.070
So I'm shooting them out of the dark.

00:22:20.290 --> 00:22:20.930
Um,

00:22:21.280 --> 00:22:23.110
Elizabeth: well, and maybe
there doesn't have to be just

00:22:23.120 --> 00:22:25.520
one approach to signing it.

00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:30.300
Maybe there's a way to incorporate
a lot of different, right, like some

00:22:30.300 --> 00:22:34.179
people focusing on the lyrics, some
people focusing on a different aspect

00:22:34.179 --> 00:22:35.859
of the music or their experience.

00:22:37.129 --> 00:22:39.659
Some people might be
very clued into rhythm.

00:22:39.689 --> 00:22:45.280
Like the Ode to Joy is fascinating
because it has such a strong like rhythmic

00:22:45.410 --> 00:22:53.320
identity that even just like the pulse
of it,[snapping a beat] I feel like would

00:22:53.330 --> 00:23:01.885
be meaningful, and the formal structure
of the Ode to Joy is one that has been

00:23:02.285 --> 00:23:04.245
repeated throughout music history a lot.

00:23:04.995 --> 00:23:09.585
So we would kind of instinctively
as listeners that grew up in this

00:23:09.634 --> 00:23:13.974
culture, it's really comforting too,
because we know what to expect, like,

00:23:13.974 --> 00:23:15.684
we know things are going to come back.

00:23:16.454 --> 00:23:18.444
It has a nice sense of finality.

00:23:19.060 --> 00:23:23.030
So those shapes are also really
interesting shapes that that

00:23:23.030 --> 00:23:25.879
could be embodied or picked up
in the, I don't know, in the,

00:23:25.889 --> 00:23:27.330
in the way that it's translated.

00:23:28.070 --> 00:23:28.550
Olivia: Right.

00:23:29.570 --> 00:23:35.350
Yeah, I just had a thought of having
a speaker, maybe placing a speaker

00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.959
on her or something as she sign it.

00:23:39.049 --> 00:23:43.635
And see if that, That kind of
changes what, influences her

00:23:43.635 --> 00:23:48.665
dynamic, you know, that's just like
a very preliminary thing to do.

00:23:50.175 --> 00:23:52.014
Elizabeth: Yeah, if you're
not sure how to direct people,

00:23:52.024 --> 00:23:54.975
putting them in conversation
with something else like that.

00:23:55.295 --> 00:23:56.204
Yeah, that's brilliant.

00:23:57.615 --> 00:23:58.005
Olivia: Cool.

00:23:58.184 --> 00:24:00.035
Okay, that's a great thing to start with.

00:24:01.475 --> 00:24:02.005
Um,

00:24:02.775 --> 00:24:03.435
golly.

00:24:07.295 --> 00:24:09.175
Elizabeth: What are the, oh sorry:

00:24:09.175 --> 00:24:09.545
go ahead.

00:24:10.495 --> 00:24:11.525
Olivia: No, what were you going to say?

00:24:12.145 --> 00:24:14.415
Elizabeth: I was going to ask
about the first two movements.

00:24:16.025 --> 00:24:16.265
Olivia: Oh,

00:24:16.265 --> 00:24:16.615
uh huh.

00:24:16.865 --> 00:24:18.185
Oh, can I share it with you, actually?

00:24:18.185 --> 00:24:18.595
Or do we have

00:24:18.595 --> 00:24:18.805
time?

00:24:19.015 --> 00:24:19.145
Elizabeth: Yeah.

00:24:19.205 --> 00:24:19.865
Oh, I'd love that.

00:24:20.504 --> 00:24:20.725
Olivia: Okay.

00:24:23.575 --> 00:24:25.055
Yeah.

00:24:25.749 --> 00:24:29.539
So I'm at the point where I'm also
working with a sound designer who is

00:24:29.539 --> 00:24:32.546
going to help me smooth out the sound.

00:24:32.546 --> 00:24:35.290
Um, so this is where I am at the moment.

00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:37.259
I guess I could show it over Zoom, right?

00:24:37.260 --> 00:24:39.939
Elizabeth: Oh yeah, let me make
sure I've got that enabled.

00:24:40.299 --> 00:24:42.370
Well, I'm just going
to make you a co host.

00:24:42.890 --> 00:24:43.579
That's what we'll do.

00:24:44.999 --> 00:24:46.219
You should be able to do everything now.

00:25:01.949 --> 00:25:03.959
Olivia: I'm looking for a share screen.

00:25:03.959 --> 00:25:04.399
Share screen!

00:25:04.399 --> 00:25:05.620
Okay, share screen.

00:25:05.669 --> 00:25:15.245
(Stop) (up, please) share
sound, optimized for video clip.

00:25:17.335 --> 00:25:18.595
Okay, here it is.

00:25:19.575 --> 00:25:20.295
First movement.

00:25:20.305 --> 00:25:21.025
Do you see that?

00:25:22.435 --> 00:25:22.805
Elizabeth: Yep.

00:25:23.505 --> 00:25:23.835
Olivia: Okay.

00:25:24.234 --> 00:25:30.105
Um, I wonder if I should give
you some kind of a prelim or

00:25:30.105 --> 00:25:31.585
just just show it to you cold.

00:25:31.945 --> 00:25:36.995
Elizabeth: I muted myself?

00:25:37.004 --> 00:25:38.195
Whichever you prefer.

00:25:40.595 --> 00:25:42.294
Olivia: Okay, I'll give
you like an overview.

00:25:42.314 --> 00:25:45.625
In the beginning, I was just
making these gestures, um, with,

00:25:45.824 --> 00:25:47.504
uh, with Ellen from ThoughtWorks.

00:25:47.955 --> 00:25:51.435
And, and I, I've always been really
interested in, in, uh, movement as

00:25:51.464 --> 00:25:55.574
like, uh, uh, a, a sound sculpture.

00:25:55.874 --> 00:25:59.965
So, um, so I, I use the kind
of effect which make echoes,

00:26:00.014 --> 00:26:03.395
but there's so many echoes that
become this sort of, uh, a shape.

00:26:03.955 --> 00:26:09.270
Um, so then the movement, which is
some of it is just me moving to music.

00:26:09.270 --> 00:26:12.260
I have no vocabulary to it whatsoever.

00:26:12.580 --> 00:26:17.130
And then some of it is me at the
piano, the movements at the piano.

00:26:17.520 --> 00:26:24.909
And then, um, and I have some footages
where I was shot, I shot playing

00:26:24.909 --> 00:26:26.970
piano playing underneath a glass.

00:26:27.389 --> 00:26:31.659
And I thought these kind of
movies sort of reminded me of

00:26:32.070 --> 00:26:32.790
signing.

00:26:33.050 --> 00:26:36.670
So that's a lot of like kind of
blending in and crossovers or

00:26:36.730 --> 00:26:39.910
like a collage of things that kind
of make me think of the others.

00:26:40.430 --> 00:26:47.440
And then the sound that of tinnitus or
disruptive hearing with my piano playing,

00:26:47.489 --> 00:26:52.740
and then I also recorded something
called, piano scribe is really cool.

00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:53.850
I was

00:26:54.100 --> 00:26:56.800
reading out, narrating these stories.

00:26:57.179 --> 00:27:02.450
And, um, and then you can actually
feed this recording into this website

00:27:02.770 --> 00:27:04.829
and it turned it into piano notes.

00:27:05.840 --> 00:27:06.940
Elizabeth: Oh, okay.

00:27:07.339 --> 00:27:08.659
Olivia: Yeah, that's really cool.

00:27:08.659 --> 00:27:12.766
You know, it's kind of like me
becoming a piano, talking, and it

00:27:12.766 --> 00:27:15.888
kind of talks, my, my, my voice.

00:27:15.888 --> 00:27:16.334
Um,

00:27:17.505 --> 00:27:18.655
Elizabeth: That is really cool.

00:27:19.865 --> 00:27:20.185
Olivia: And then

00:27:22.225 --> 00:27:26.045
the person who I'm working with
at Cinemat, he also developed a,

00:27:26.045 --> 00:27:29.015
just like a hybridization of sound.

00:27:29.025 --> 00:27:37.524
So I also hybridized my voice with sounds
of the wind, which to me is kind of

00:27:37.535 --> 00:27:40.535
like the most basic energy of movement.

00:27:41.095 --> 00:27:45.510
Um, so there's, there's wind
sounds, there's tinnitus sounds,

00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:48.000
um, there's piano scribing sounds.

00:27:48.929 --> 00:27:50.370
And so that's the first movement.

00:27:50.689 --> 00:27:52.370
And I'll tell you about the
second movement when I get there.

00:27:53.210 --> 00:27:53.590
Okay.

00:27:54.110 --> 00:27:55.300
Alright, so here I am.

00:27:55.320 --> 00:27:56.060
I'm going to push go.

00:28:03.289 --> 00:28:28.309
Recorded Project: When I was
six, my mom asked me if I

00:28:28.310 --> 00:28:30.250
wanted to do ballet or piano.

00:28:30.850 --> 00:28:34.650
I picked piano mostly because my
hearing aids would go skydiving

00:28:34.650 --> 00:28:35.800
if I were to do a pirouette.

00:28:35.930 --> 00:28:38.310
[music and other sounds
interspersed]However, given

00:28:38.310 --> 00:28:41.100
my hearing loss, (it was)
around 20 percent in both ears.

00:28:41.100 --> 00:28:44.680
It would seem  counterintuitive
to study music.

00:28:46.370 --> 00:28:52.280
Mostly though, my parents wanted me to
not feel I was limited by hearing aids.

00:28:53.050 --> 00:28:54.440
My brother, four years

00:28:54.730 --> 00:28:54.840
older

00:28:55.230 --> 00:28:59.669
than me, is severely autistic and
required a great deal more attention

00:28:59.669 --> 00:29:00.489
than me.

00:29:00.490 --> 00:29:13.881
Making an existence in the center of
technology and music would be a vision

00:29:13.881 --> 00:29:21.533
of ours in the eye of a maelstrom.

00:29:21.533 --> 00:29:22.489
One

00:29:36.310 --> 00:29:36.350
that's

00:29:36.570 --> 00:29:38.669
untouchable in a world so safe and

00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:40.030
focused and alive.

00:29:40.030 --> 00:30:00.859
Sounds I'm going to be

00:30:00.860 --> 00:30:03.539
pretty cool, the whole building to myself.

00:30:04.085 --> 00:30:05.025
And maybe even access

00:30:05.025 --> 00:30:25.499
the fan set in your area.

00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:49.180
Olivia: So that is the first movement.

00:31:50.815 --> 00:31:53.095
Elizabeth: I love that so much.

00:31:55.145 --> 00:31:56.425
Oh my gosh.

00:31:57.145 --> 00:31:59.645
Olivia: Um, can I just
show you the second one?

00:32:00.910 --> 00:32:02.250
Keep the flow going.

00:32:02.580 --> 00:32:02.760
Elizabeth: Sure.

00:32:02.760 --> 00:32:03.090
Yeah.

00:32:03.360 --> 00:32:06.850
Olivia: And, uh, this is it.

00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:07.300
Okay.

00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:15.250
So, um, I started by like, you know,
throwing every idea out there, and then it

00:32:15.260 --> 00:32:21.485
seemed to make more sense to kind of Like,
group, these kind of topics that I had.

00:32:21.835 --> 00:32:25.825
And then so the second movement, it
came out, I was also investigating,

00:32:26.485 --> 00:32:31.124
thinking about the notation of
music, the dynamics, and you know,

00:32:31.125 --> 00:32:33.215
dynamics of rest, rest is silence.

00:32:33.215 --> 00:32:37.245
It's you know, kind of like negative
sound, really, because it's just

00:32:37.255 --> 00:32:39.315
no sound, supposed to be no sound.

00:32:39.645 --> 00:32:43.125
And, um, the dynamics, it kind of
makes me think of, uh, the sounds

00:32:43.125 --> 00:32:45.125
that I can hear and not hear.

00:32:45.485 --> 00:32:50.544
So, especially for speaking, um,
we usually miss out, uh, high

00:32:50.554 --> 00:32:52.285
frequency sounds like consonants.

00:32:52.884 --> 00:32:57.145
And, um, so different, different,
uh, phonemes, so to speak, like

00:32:57.165 --> 00:33:02.195
tiny units of speech, um, have
different levels of accessibility.

00:33:02.815 --> 00:33:04.615
So, this is kind of typographic.

00:33:04.635 --> 00:33:07.525
I'm calling it Scherzo, so
it's sort of a joke, you know?

00:33:07.535 --> 00:33:10.195
Because, um, I don't know.

00:33:10.275 --> 00:33:12.475
It feels like a joke to me in a way.

00:33:12.475 --> 00:33:16.525
Like a cosmic joke on me that I can
hear, but I can't hear at the same time.

00:33:17.065 --> 00:33:18.375
Uh, so, here you go.

00:34:13.965 --> 00:34:27.234
Recorded Project: Ssss Chh Ohhh Chh Ohhh

00:34:44.315 --> 00:34:54.304
What done thou Tch Ssss

00:35:15.915 --> 00:35:16.045
Shh.

00:35:16.045 --> 00:35:16.847
Shh.

00:35:16.847 --> 00:35:17.649
Shh.

00:35:17.649 --> 00:35:18.451
Shh.

00:35:18.451 --> 00:35:19.254
Shh.

00:35:19.254 --> 00:35:31.288
I don't know about you, but I'm
gonna see you in a couple of hours.

00:35:31.288 --> 00:35:38.508
I think I'll be with you at 5 8.

00:35:38.508 --> 00:35:41.718
I'll be right back.

00:35:41.718 --> 00:35:44.124
What the fuck?

00:36:34.695 --> 00:36:35.115
Olivia: Okay.

00:36:38.945 --> 00:36:40.595
Elizabeth: I love that so much.

00:36:41.965 --> 00:36:43.345
I'm so excited over here.

00:36:43.405 --> 00:36:43.795
Sorry.

00:36:45.265 --> 00:36:52.070
Olivia: Let me find, Here you are.

00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:52.790
I found you.

00:36:53.435 --> 00:36:56.495
Elizabeth: Well, some of it was
hard for me to conceptualize what

00:36:56.500 --> 00:37:00.890
you were saying until I saw it,
and then it's like, oh, that's it.

00:37:02.110 --> 00:37:02.770
Oh my God.

00:37:02.770 --> 00:37:03.535
Olivia: Oh, okay.

00:37:04.235 --> 00:37:04.595
Okay.

00:37:04.595 --> 00:37:06.965
Elizabeth: The dynamics,
the words coming in and out.

00:37:08.030 --> 00:37:10.580
The like equivalencies you're setting up.

00:37:15.020 --> 00:37:15.830
It's brilliant.

00:37:15.830 --> 00:37:16.480
I love it.

00:37:17.110 --> 00:37:20.979
I also love like the subtle nods
to the structure of a scherzo.

00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:23.510
Oh,

00:37:25.899 --> 00:37:27.700
Olivia: well, you know
what I thought was, um,

00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:31.490
Elizabeth: no, I was in here like
thinking, I started thinking about lesson

00:37:31.490 --> 00:37:34.860
planning for my students to teach this
and I'm like, that is not why we're

00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:39.505
here, but that's where my brain went was
like, I need to show this to my students.

00:37:39.505 --> 00:37:40.515
I'm like, no, you don't.

00:37:41.225 --> 00:37:41.905
But that's yeah.

00:37:41.955 --> 00:37:42.655
Anyway, sorry.

00:37:45.535 --> 00:37:51.715
Olivia: But I what I thought was really
interesting is, like, what, at least

00:37:51.734 --> 00:37:55.954
for the passionata because I'm playing
it so I know and that there's those

00:37:56.174 --> 00:37:57.885
little kind of little "le-le-le".

00:37:58.095 --> 00:38:01.105
And they make me think of
some of the tinnitus rhythms.

00:38:01.345 --> 00:38:04.445
Tinnitus can come in all
different forms of sound.

00:38:04.475 --> 00:38:08.365
And so then I would actually
kind of hack the piece.

00:38:08.365 --> 00:38:12.685
So it it, you know, you only have two bars
and goes into something else, but I would

00:38:12.685 --> 00:38:19.525
just take that "le-le-le" and then, you
know, play for 10 bars or something, uh,

00:38:19.525 --> 00:38:23.635
and then layer that up, record that and
chop up something else, something else

00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:28.165
that's kind of,[higher pitch] "de-le-lee"
then, so it's still, the soundscape is

00:38:28.165 --> 00:38:31.855
still a work in progress, but I think I
would like to do more of those layers and

00:38:31.855 --> 00:38:38.360
then to like really extend those and try
to connect that to the sound of tinnitus.

00:38:39.150 --> 00:38:42.965
Elizabeth: Well, and there's this
way that Beethoven composes, like

00:38:42.965 --> 00:38:47.485
as, you know but for me to get
to my comment, I'm apparently

00:38:48.494 --> 00:38:52.105
pontificating as a musicologist, but
the way that Beethoven composes being

00:38:52.115 --> 00:38:54.495
very visual and very structural.

00:38:56.160 --> 00:39:01.180
Where you have themes that are, that
start showing up in different sections

00:39:01.180 --> 00:39:05.989
of a movement across movements, uh,
times that you're really actually

00:39:05.989 --> 00:39:09.130
getting a fragment and you don't
get the full theme until the end.

00:39:09.140 --> 00:39:11.930
Like, it takes a while for all
the complexities to emerge.

00:39:12.609 --> 00:39:16.519
It's, there's so many parallels with what
you're doing and how you're constructing

00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:19.355
it that are just absolutely gorgeous.

00:39:20.045 --> 00:39:24.685
And we have one of, at least one of
our advisors, like the Ground Works

00:39:24.705 --> 00:39:29.065
advisory board, at least one person
on our advisory board has tinnitus.

00:39:30.005 --> 00:39:33.625
And that was one of the people I
was thinking of watching this was

00:39:33.685 --> 00:39:35.204
just like, Oh, what would she think?

00:39:35.205 --> 00:39:37.194
Like does this resonate
with her experience?

00:39:37.225 --> 00:39:37.995
Because it sounds.

00:39:39.275 --> 00:39:42.995
Like, it seems more analogous to
the things she's tried to explain

00:39:43.015 --> 00:39:44.365
to me about the experience.

00:39:45.365 --> 00:39:46.685
Like, oh!

00:39:47.365 --> 00:39:50.785
I don't know, like there was a sense of
me going, oh, is that what she meant?

00:39:52.005 --> 00:39:53.824
When I'm watching like
your depiction of it.

00:39:53.865 --> 00:39:54.684
Anyway, sorry.

00:39:55.365 --> 00:39:55.795
These are random.

00:39:57.485 --> 00:40:00.945
Olivia: Totally, you're totally
welcome to share with anyone, you

00:40:00.945 --> 00:40:04.145
know, just just make make the point
that you're still work in progress.

00:40:04.855 --> 00:40:05.034
Elizabeth: Oh

00:40:05.034 --> 00:40:09.954
no, I would, it would just be if
you wanted me to introduce you, if

00:40:09.954 --> 00:40:14.699
you wanted to be in conversation
at any point or I'm just yeah, no.

00:40:15.060 --> 00:40:15.920
I'm excited about

00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:16.100
this.

00:40:16.130 --> 00:40:17.970
I cannot wait for the exhibition.

00:40:17.970 --> 00:40:22.250
I'm there.

00:40:22.620 --> 00:40:23.600
I'm team Olivia.

00:40:24.690 --> 00:40:27.410
Olivia: Well, you know, with
all this, this visuals but in

00:40:28.329 --> 00:40:33.910
the end it's really meant to be
projected on screens and all, so,

00:40:34.010 --> 00:40:34.969
Elizabeth: Yeah,

00:40:34.969 --> 00:40:38.299
how is it going to appear
in the exhibit then?

00:40:38.970 --> 00:40:45.005
Olivia: Well, okay, here I have
some, some try outs of the space

00:40:45.035 --> 00:40:48.075
and in my back, I mean in my garage.

00:40:48.335 --> 00:40:53.055
So, okay, I'm gonna go back to sharing the

00:40:53.625 --> 00:40:54.075
screen.

00:40:54.395 --> 00:40:57.504
Elizabeth: It's so funny when you're
saying it's a work in progress because,

00:40:58.844 --> 00:41:02.974
like, it would be if you displayed
it as is right now, it's brilliant.

00:41:04.764 --> 00:41:05.054
Olivia: Really?!

00:41:05.054 --> 00:41:06.364
Oh my gosh.

00:41:06.364 --> 00:41:09.345
Elizabeth: Not that you should
stop doing the things that you want

00:41:09.345 --> 00:41:12.895
to do or whatever, but just like,
even in this form, which you're

00:41:12.895 --> 00:41:14.415
telling me is still kind of raw.

00:41:14.415 --> 00:41:14.515
It's.

00:41:16.350 --> 00:41:16.620
I'm obsessed.

00:41:17.500 --> 00:41:17.690
Olivia: Oh,

00:41:17.730 --> 00:41:18.460
thank you.

00:41:19.110 --> 00:41:20.320
Um, yeah.

00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:24.060
So this is my, my garage, really,
and you see some pieces of

00:41:24.070 --> 00:41:26.299
fabric and what I like about it.

00:41:26.299 --> 00:41:26.720
It's a

00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:28.950
sheet of fabric.

00:41:28.950 --> 00:41:35.490
Elizabeth: Oh, wow.

00:41:36.175 --> 00:41:39.324
Olivia: Okay, uh, so

00:41:45.805 --> 00:41:48.325
that's, (inaudible).

00:41:49.325 --> 00:41:52.484
Um, I, I actually made a

00:41:52.485 --> 00:41:53.615
different, so I have more than one

00:41:53.625 --> 00:41:53.705
projector.

00:41:56.365 --> 00:42:03.515
The other projector, uh, Cheryl, uh,
tried, uh, you know, it's too old for her.

00:42:08.795 --> 00:42:11.965
(inaudible)

00:42:12.995 --> 00:42:17.355
Uh, the second one, the test
for the second one, it's

00:42:17.895 --> 00:42:19.045
Elizabeth: real, real quick.

00:42:19.065 --> 00:42:22.745
I wasn't getting all of your audio
through the, through the thing.

00:42:22.754 --> 00:42:25.964
Can you, um, tell me again what you were
telling me as the first one was playing?

00:42:26.385 --> 00:42:27.245
Olivia: Oh, the first one,

00:42:27.245 --> 00:42:29.348
Elizabeth: it was cutting in and out.

00:42:29.348 --> 00:42:31.451
I just wanted to wait until

00:42:31.451 --> 00:42:32.502
it was done.

00:42:32.502 --> 00:42:32.853
Olivia: Okay.

00:42:32.853 --> 00:42:37.409
Um, well basically, um, you know, there's
these, these, these scrims so that

00:42:37.700 --> 00:42:40.050
people can navigate through the space.

00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:43.370
And then, um, I use more than 1 projector.

00:42:43.410 --> 00:42:48.340
So there's 1 in the
front and 1 in the back.

00:42:48.640 --> 00:42:52.970
In other words, I'm just layering,
um, different contents as well.

00:42:53.520 --> 00:42:54.280
Um,

00:42:55.110 --> 00:42:55.330
so

00:42:55.330 --> 00:42:59.270
Elizabeth: That is so, like, as an
autistic person, I was sitting here

00:42:59.270 --> 00:43:03.830
going, is this going to be overwhelming
for me, or is it going to be heaven?

00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:07.089
and I think it's probably the
latter, especially if there

00:43:07.090 --> 00:43:08.299
weren't too many people.

00:43:08.780 --> 00:43:13.290
So like you could experience it
like you could take your time in it.

00:43:14.670 --> 00:43:16.510
Oh goodness, this is wonderful.

00:43:17.439 --> 00:43:18.354
So you end up.

00:43:18.655 --> 00:43:19.541
Are you hoping for two?

00:43:19.731 --> 00:43:20.331
Olivia: (inaudible)

00:43:21.135 --> 00:43:27.585
expanse, you know, so that, um, so
that anyone could take as much time and

00:43:27.595 --> 00:43:29.844
move through the space at their pace.

00:43:31.605 --> 00:43:32.075
Yeah.

00:43:32.684 --> 00:43:38.965
Elizabeth: And being surrounded
by, like, speaker wise, where

00:43:38.965 --> 00:43:40.754
would the audio be located?

00:43:41.065 --> 00:43:43.895
Is it like all around or is
it coming from one source?

00:43:44.255 --> 00:43:44.875
Olivia: Yeah,

00:43:44.885 --> 00:43:46.915
I have not figured

00:43:46.915 --> 00:43:47.649
that out yet.

00:43:47.729 --> 00:43:49.369
I haven't gotten that far.

00:43:49.585 --> 00:43:54.424
And plus the fact that there would
be more than one (inaudible).

00:43:54.424 --> 00:43:57.660
So, the first movement, um, okay,
so this is the first movement.

00:43:58.040 --> 00:43:59.030
Um, oops!

00:43:59.130 --> 00:43:59.630
Aiyah.

00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:03.309
Ah, dude.

00:44:05.369 --> 00:44:06.840
Elizabeth: I do this all the time.

00:44:07.540 --> 00:44:11.829
So once I, once I switch to Windows
11, this keeps happening to me.

00:44:13.710 --> 00:44:15.110
Olivia: The sound is not even relevant.

00:44:15.370 --> 00:44:21.710
So, um, the second movement is,
is, is, is more typographic.

00:44:21.780 --> 00:44:25.430
I thought it was kind of cool that these
letters are just sort of floating around.

00:44:27.170 --> 00:44:28.090
Elizabeth: Oh my goodness.

00:44:30.170 --> 00:44:31.630
Yeah, I would want to live there.

00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:34.840
Like, you know what I mean?

00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:37.250
Like just be in it and experience it.

00:44:38.790 --> 00:44:42.689
So is each movement going to loop
in a slightly separate space and

00:44:42.690 --> 00:44:46.259
you move through all of them or will
it be like one movement, and then

00:44:46.259 --> 00:44:48.150
the next one and then the next one?

00:44:48.660 --> 00:44:49.540
Olivia: Yeah, exactly.

00:44:49.630 --> 00:44:53.320
So, um, this is kind of.

00:44:59.370 --> 00:45:04.890
So the, um, like in the space that
would hang the, uh, scrims, so these

00:45:04.890 --> 00:45:12.960
lines here with this sheet of fabric,
and, um, but this is a really big

00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:17.849
space, you know, and in reality, I
think we only, so this entire Beall,

00:45:18.269 --> 00:45:24.560
and I just threw out a number like, oh,
okay, 15 feet by 20 feet, this is my

00:45:24.560 --> 00:45:31.395
area, and within this area, you know,
if I would break it up, it Like that.

00:45:31.415 --> 00:45:36.985
So, so these would be kind of
like some kind of movable, like a

00:45:36.985 --> 00:45:40.455
panel, a wall panel or something.

00:45:40.835 --> 00:45:45.594
Temporary wall panel so it divides the
space, and then you can have a first

00:45:45.594 --> 00:45:49.345
movement projector first movement, and
they could wander through (inaudible).

00:45:49.605 --> 00:45:53.385
Second movement and then
wander into the third movement.

00:45:53.385 --> 00:45:56.055
And the third movement would
be the, uh, the haptic.

00:45:56.415 --> 00:45:58.365
So, um, the Ode to Joy haptic.

00:45:58.365 --> 00:46:03.850
So that gives it, um, the most, uh,
I gave it the most space, um, for

00:46:03.855 --> 00:46:07.895
the first and the second, uh, more
like straight plane uh, you know,

00:46:07.905 --> 00:46:12.315
video projection that you can just
take your time and experience them.

00:46:12.905 --> 00:46:15.714
So this is 2 schematics.

00:46:15.714 --> 00:46:17.155
1 is like this.

00:46:17.185 --> 00:46:24.054
And then the other idea is that the Ode
to Joy is a much longer kind of space.

00:46:25.055 --> 00:46:28.085
And this one is a wider space.

00:46:28.635 --> 00:46:33.095
That I don't, sound, some level of
sound control needs to be exercised.

00:46:34.125 --> 00:46:34.615
So I don't know.

00:46:34.615 --> 00:46:36.744
Elizabeth: That's what I was
wondering because there's also

00:46:36.745 --> 00:46:40.984
some other artists thinking about
having sound and whether it's.

00:46:41.955 --> 00:46:50.205
I mean, one, you, you could do it
like silent disco-esque where people

00:46:50.205 --> 00:46:53.224
are actually listening in headphones
as they're moving through the spaces

00:46:53.225 --> 00:46:54.675
and they just switch the track.

00:46:55.685 --> 00:46:56.345
Olivia: Oh.

00:46:58.655 --> 00:46:58.915
Okay.

00:46:58.915 --> 00:47:00.430
Elizabeth: Or, I don't know.

00:47:02.490 --> 00:47:03.740
That was a random idea.

00:47:04.600 --> 00:47:09.860
Olivia: Would it be like, uh, do you
think it would be better to have, I

00:47:09.870 --> 00:47:11.260
guess it would have to be wireless.

00:47:11.370 --> 00:47:13.910
I mean, otherwise, you have a
wireless headphone, or otherwise

00:47:13.930 --> 00:47:14.980
you can't move around in the

00:47:14.990 --> 00:47:15.620
space.

00:47:18.090 --> 00:47:21.199
Elizabeth: I mean, there's something
interesting about being tethered, though.

00:47:21.810 --> 00:47:24.720
You know, like, so it
would be another element.

00:47:24.890 --> 00:47:26.870
You could have people moving freely.

00:47:27.655 --> 00:47:32.665
Or if they're plugged into something
that's going to affect how they're moving

00:47:32.665 --> 00:47:39.084
in the space, it'll limit, but that like
limitation is not always a bad thing.

00:47:39.674 --> 00:47:40.264
Olivia: Mm-hm.

00:47:41.985 --> 00:47:44.895
Elizabeth: So you could think
about the experience of being

00:47:44.895 --> 00:47:48.695
tethered, of navigating, because
if there's more than one,

00:47:49.250 --> 00:47:52.640
that's the other thing is if you're
wanting just like one person in each space

00:47:52.640 --> 00:47:57.760
at a time, if there's more than one person
in space, and they both are tethered to

00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:02.199
headphones, then there's also this like
choreography that they're doing with each

00:48:02.249 --> 00:48:04.119
other as they move through the space.

00:48:04.790 --> 00:48:09.630
That could be interesting,
or could be challenging or.

00:48:10.450 --> 00:48:14.870
I think those are all kind of
like, however you deal with the

00:48:14.910 --> 00:48:21.305
sound problem, it's that point of
resistance against which you can,

00:48:21.335 --> 00:48:23.625
like, creativity can kind of thrive.

00:48:23.625 --> 00:48:25.045
Like, you create more meaning.

00:48:26.025 --> 00:48:29.835
This is a weird analogy, but I
think of, um, George Lucas a lot.

00:48:31.165 --> 00:48:34.864
Because when, when he created,
like, the original Star Wars movies,

00:48:34.905 --> 00:48:38.885
especially the first one, like, there
was a very limited budget, right?

00:48:38.925 --> 00:48:42.255
There were a lot more people
and things saying no to him.

00:48:42.275 --> 00:48:47.145
And then by the time he gets to the
prequels, everything is just a big yes.

00:48:47.790 --> 00:48:50.670
And that almost made it harder,
and it gets jumbled and you

00:48:50.670 --> 00:48:52.460
lose the narrative a lot more.

00:48:52.550 --> 00:48:52.730
Olivia: Right.

00:48:53.140 --> 00:48:53.760
Right.

00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:58.580
Elizabeth: So like, the sound thing is
tricky, but I think it'll, I think there's

00:48:58.590 --> 00:49:04.790
probably a way that you can use it to your
advantage in terms of, but yeah, you could

00:49:04.790 --> 00:49:07.280
do wireless, you could have them be wired.

00:49:08.260 --> 00:49:12.970
You could also have,
like, it just take turns.

00:49:13.730 --> 00:49:14.060
Right.

00:49:14.100 --> 00:49:18.580
So like the music from the first
movement plays in speakers.

00:49:19.550 --> 00:49:22.420
And then when it's done,
the second movement plays.

00:49:23.030 --> 00:49:26.540
So there's also times to experience
the visuals without the sound.

00:49:27.170 --> 00:49:29.280
Um, I don't know.

00:49:30.259 --> 00:49:31.460
Olivia: I see what you mean.

00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:37.710
So if you're, okay so like, for when the
sound of the first movement is playing,

00:49:37.729 --> 00:49:41.790
you might be in the second movement
space hearing the first movement sound.

00:49:42.560 --> 00:49:43.050
Elizabeth: Mm hmm.

00:49:43.630 --> 00:49:47.310
Olivia: Wow.(laughing) That's trippy.

00:49:48.009 --> 00:49:48.520
Elizabeth: It would be.

00:49:48.530 --> 00:49:48.970
Yeah.

00:49:49.715 --> 00:49:50.520
It would be trippy.

00:49:51.430 --> 00:49:51.610
Olivia: Mm-Hmm.

00:49:53.110 --> 00:49:57.910
. 
Well I also kind of like the idea of a,
the share, a a a a headphone because,

00:49:57.970 --> 00:50:02.420
um, you know, it's sort of like for me,
switching my hearing aid on and off.

00:50:02.980 --> 00:50:05.110
You know, like now you
hear it, now you don't.

00:50:05.110 --> 00:50:06.790
You put it on, oh yeah, I hear it.

00:50:06.790 --> 00:50:07.275
You know,

00:50:07.905 --> 00:50:08.175
so

00:50:08.175 --> 00:50:10.380
Elizabeth: And it's kind of
interesting 'cause if there was a

00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:14.975
technical problem on the day, it's
still part of the art installation

00:50:16.205 --> 00:50:16.555
Right.

00:50:16.955 --> 00:50:19.120
'cause like, you know what I mean?

00:50:19.120 --> 00:50:19.495
Like it's,

00:50:20.605 --> 00:50:20.895
Olivia: yeah.

00:50:21.795 --> 00:50:23.605
You need to figure it out by visuals.

00:50:27.895 --> 00:50:33.015
Yeah, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop
share because I, for some reason

00:50:33.015 --> 00:50:35.245
when I share I can't see you.

00:50:35.985 --> 00:50:37.065
Okay, so I'm back.

00:50:38.505 --> 00:50:41.855
Yeah, that's the big idea of all that.

00:50:41.855 --> 00:50:42.805
Elizabeth: I love that.

00:50:44.020 --> 00:50:47.430
And you're still thinking of like
the, what the haptic will actually

00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:49.030
be and look like which is cool.

00:50:49.340 --> 00:50:49.730
Olivia: Right.

00:50:49.730 --> 00:50:55.019
Is it going to be a thing, you know that
people hold on to, like, is it going to

00:50:55.029 --> 00:50:57.220
be a flat thing that they can kind of

00:50:57.325 --> 00:50:59.865
place it wherever they want?

00:50:59.865 --> 00:51:03.165
You know, because in a way, the, the,
the Helen Keller story is a thing.

00:51:03.165 --> 00:51:07.155
It's a radio, but obviously we're
not gonna make it that massive.

00:51:07.595 --> 00:51:12.215
Um, the other thing about the, uh, the
wearable is I sort of ran into a bit

00:51:12.215 --> 00:51:14.885
of a crossed wire with, um, Josephine.

00:51:15.155 --> 00:51:19.565
'cause Josephine's concept also has to do
with the haptic that's around the neck.

00:51:20.035 --> 00:51:21.175
So, um.

00:51:21.475 --> 00:51:24.215
You know, we had a conversation
whether these two would be too

00:51:24.245 --> 00:51:32.415
similar, but the, um, properties of it
makes it like a (dundan) or whatnot.

00:51:32.875 --> 00:51:36.835
So that's what, and then also I'm
having challenges understanding,

00:51:36.945 --> 00:51:41.975
uh, smart textile tech, um, design
because, you know, sticking all

00:51:41.995 --> 00:51:45.375
this thing into a pliable substrate,

00:51:45.375 --> 00:51:47.595
it's just not simple as a super gluing it.

00:51:48.055 --> 00:51:53.210
So, um, that's why I thought maybe
if we, Okay, for the sake of the time

00:51:53.210 --> 00:51:57.070
that we have left, putting it into
some kind of a physical object, it's

00:51:57.140 --> 00:51:59.860
logistically easier to figure out.

00:51:59.860 --> 00:51:59.969
Elizabeth: The

00:51:59.969 --> 00:52:02.790
little pucks when you go to Olive Garden.

00:52:05.810 --> 00:52:07.270
When they're like, wait,
no, I'm just kidding.

00:52:08.080 --> 00:52:15.060
Well, there could be something nice to
about the Helen Keller-esque, like, could

00:52:15.060 --> 00:52:21.480
you have something very much like the
radio where it's like a box that people

00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:27.910
can walk up and touch and then walk
away from or, or yeah, carry with them.

00:52:28.390 --> 00:52:32.389
It is like a more direct analog
than the cloth probably to

00:52:32.389 --> 00:52:33.650
your original inspiration.

00:52:34.570 --> 00:52:37.810
I mean, you didn't ask me to weigh in.

00:52:39.230 --> 00:52:45.630
But honestly, you know, multiple
people will project things on screens;

00:52:45.720 --> 00:52:51.815
multiple people will be using speakers
positioned in different areas; multiple

00:52:51.815 --> 00:52:53.685
people having haptic wearables.

00:52:53.695 --> 00:52:56.355
I think these all kind of
actually go in the same category.

00:52:57.765 --> 00:53:00.295
Because neither of you were the
first person to ever think of this

00:53:00.335 --> 00:53:06.424
technology and art applications and
sonic applications, you know, so for

00:53:06.425 --> 00:53:11.465
my money, do what you need to do, but
also sometimes what you need to do is

00:53:12.585 --> 00:53:14.295
think about the exhibit as a whole.

00:53:14.495 --> 00:53:15.795
So, you know, you're good either way.

00:53:18.435 --> 00:53:19.375
You're good either way.

00:53:19.444 --> 00:53:20.285
That was my input.

00:53:20.740 --> 00:53:22.720
That was not asked for, but it's my input.

00:53:24.090 --> 00:53:25.050
. 
Olivia: No, thank you.

00:53:25.050 --> 00:53:25.710
Thank you.

00:53:25.770 --> 00:53:32.380
Um, you know, Josephine raised it,
I, I didn't really, I didn't realize

00:53:32.380 --> 00:53:37.000
that her, um, hap-, she had a haptic
thing that goes around the neck.

00:53:37.410 --> 00:53:42.680
Um, but you know, Vanessa and
Lindsey, you know, they, they

00:53:42.685 --> 00:53:47.910
would know from the get- go because
they've curated everyone's contents.

00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:50.800
So Vanessa thought it's, um.

00:53:51.970 --> 00:53:56.030
Because, because the concept behind
how we're using it (is different),

00:53:56.030 --> 00:54:02.020
she didn't think that it would be
that huge, um, but Josephine raised a

00:54:02.530 --> 00:54:05.900
Elizabeth: yeah, I mean it's, it's
a, it's a technology being used in a

00:54:05.900 --> 00:54:10.860
couple different ways which is cool
but yeah, you know, however it ends up

00:54:11.450 --> 00:54:12.870
resulting will be cool.

00:54:14.010 --> 00:54:19.860
There's something really different
about the feeling of, um, like touching

00:54:19.860 --> 00:54:24.960
a vibrating instrument or touching
something solid like a speaker.

00:54:25.660 --> 00:54:25.780
Right.

00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:30.319
That does, that does make sense
for like a solid surface too, so

00:54:30.319 --> 00:54:31.470
I think you're good either way.

00:54:32.009 --> 00:54:34.020
Olivia: Let me just get my, my speaker.

00:54:34.620 --> 00:54:34.780
Elizabeth: Yeah.

00:54:49.180 --> 00:54:49.450
Olivia: So

00:54:49.700 --> 00:54:55.810
this is a Bose speaker, you
know, it's kind of a nice size.

00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:59.699
It's a brick, essentially it's
just a brick, but it looks kind

00:54:59.699 --> 00:55:02.950
of speaker- like and radio- like.

00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:07.219
It's kind of the shape of what
radios were back then, except it's

00:55:07.279 --> 00:55:09.300
like a shrunken down version of it.

00:55:10.140 --> 00:55:13.010
So it's a very basic inspiration.

00:55:13.380 --> 00:55:18.610
At this point, and it's kind of cool that
they have this little tag or something.

00:55:19.005 --> 00:55:19.315
Maybe,

00:55:19.365 --> 00:55:20.515
Elizabeth: oh, yeah,
because you could hang

00:55:20.515 --> 00:55:21.615
it and then it is

00:55:22.345 --> 00:55:24.355
Olivia: (inaudible) something.

00:55:24.605 --> 00:55:24.825
Yeah.

00:55:24.825 --> 00:55:29.025
So then it's on (your arm), you don't
have to clutch it the entire time.

00:55:29.955 --> 00:55:33.784
Elizabeth: Well, it's also great from an
accessibility perspective, because like,

00:55:33.835 --> 00:55:35.854
if you have fine motor skill issues.

00:55:36.615 --> 00:55:40.215
If you have something you can place
like around a cord or, you know, like.

00:55:40.695 --> 00:55:44.765
You don't have to worry about driving
because I even I worry like right now

00:55:44.765 --> 00:55:48.225
I've got a special thing on my pen
because I do have some issues with my

00:55:48.225 --> 00:55:49.845
hands that are kind of intermittent.

00:55:51.025 --> 00:55:54.484
So I like that idea of like you've
got a variety of access, when you

00:55:54.485 --> 00:55:55.764
can hold it in different ways.

00:55:56.155 --> 00:55:58.865
You've got a variety of
things for accessibility.

00:55:59.905 --> 00:56:00.105
Olivia: Right.

00:56:00.155 --> 00:56:02.004
Okay, that's, that's a really great one.

00:56:03.714 --> 00:56:07.684
I just noticed this because I didn't
think of that before having this would

00:56:07.684 --> 00:56:11.484
be, a really, multiple problem solver.

00:56:13.690 --> 00:56:16.490
Elizabeth: It's always great when
there's like, oh, we can, we can check

00:56:16.490 --> 00:56:17.970
off a lot of boxes with this thing.

00:56:19.110 --> 00:56:21.390
Not even have to add
anything, like, it's there.

00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:23.040
Yeah, I love that.

00:56:24.020 --> 00:56:29.119
It also just feels very crip to like
see something and then have unintended

00:56:29.120 --> 00:56:31.360
uses for it that increase access.

00:56:32.260 --> 00:56:34.740
Because I think, I think
that's how we roll.

00:56:35.160 --> 00:56:35.850
Honestly.

00:56:37.110 --> 00:56:38.840
Olivia: Yeah, definitely.

00:56:38.990 --> 00:56:43.999
Because, um, you know, Vanessa and
Lindsay have been bringing very, very

00:56:44.310 --> 00:56:48.940
mindful to us as I'm designing these
kind of experiences, how would it be

00:56:49.230 --> 00:56:55.620
accessible for different, like mobility,
you know, if I have this screen, how

00:56:55.630 --> 00:56:59.480
would someone who is on a wheelchair
get through this kind of space.

00:57:00.020 --> 00:57:01.800
So, um, yeah.

00:57:02.900 --> 00:57:06.005
Elizabeth: And yeah, that'll probably
determine how close and far you

00:57:06.005 --> 00:57:07.795
can put the screens together but

00:57:10.425 --> 00:57:11.425
Olivia: yeah, and

00:57:11.475 --> 00:57:11.995
Elizabeth: have you thought

00:57:11.995 --> 00:57:12.465
about

00:57:12.995 --> 00:57:15.054
Olivia: get to ask for us.

00:57:15.334 --> 00:57:17.704
[laughing] So that I can spread stuff out.

00:57:17.975 --> 00:57:21.324
Um, 'cause the other
other cohorts haven't.

00:57:22.064 --> 00:57:24.785
Well, as you know, we
have one last cohort.

00:57:26.680 --> 00:57:31.500
Not to say, but you know, but that
gives us a teeny bit more space.

00:57:32.820 --> 00:57:36.740
Elizabeth: I hate to say it, but that
was one thought I had where I was like,

00:57:37.640 --> 00:57:41.710
It's going to be easier to fit everybody,
which is a horrible first thought, but

00:57:41.710 --> 00:57:44.410
I'm like, I'm a logistical problem solver.

00:57:44.420 --> 00:57:45.540
That's my personality.

00:57:45.540 --> 00:57:51.020
So, it's like, oh, because the other
thing we were thinking about was, like,

00:57:51.620 --> 00:57:55.389
sensory accessibility with, like, a
lot of people having sound components

00:57:55.510 --> 00:57:57.750
and light components and visual stuff.

00:57:58.525 --> 00:58:05.235
Um, having a little bit more
breathing room or like sensory like

00:58:05.265 --> 00:58:10.204
sensory- friendly spaces or ways
that you can kind of unplug from

00:58:10.204 --> 00:58:11.945
one before you go into the other.

00:58:12.114 --> 00:58:14.115
Um, that'll all be really nice.

00:58:14.755 --> 00:58:20.900
Have you thought about, um, If you
are going to want to translate any

00:58:20.900 --> 00:58:24.710
of the visuals for folks who are
blind and what that might look like.

00:58:25.890 --> 00:58:26.670
Olivia: Yeah.

00:58:26.710 --> 00:58:27.420
Yeah.

00:58:27.559 --> 00:58:28.019
Hmm.

00:58:30.289 --> 00:58:31.680
So with that, with that,

00:58:31.930 --> 00:58:35.200
Elizabeth: You have so
much sonic content already.

00:58:35.640 --> 00:58:36.120
Olivia: Yeah.

00:58:36.180 --> 00:58:40.069
Elizabeth: You can't just
like talk over all of it.

00:58:41.115 --> 00:58:41.805
Olivia: Yeah.

00:58:45.835 --> 00:58:48.345
Elizabeth: Or is it one where
it's just okay for everyone

00:58:48.345 --> 00:58:49.865
to experience it differently?

00:58:53.415 --> 00:58:56.005
Olivia: You know one thing that's
kind of fascinating about about

00:58:56.045 --> 00:59:00.814
about this kind of a body haptic is
that you get a sense of space, you

00:59:00.814 --> 00:59:07.435
know, so the visuals were inspired by
space, because it goes whoosh across.

00:59:08.515 --> 00:59:12.575
But that kind of technology
is beyond., Beyond any kind of

00:59:12.575 --> 00:59:13.165
Elizabeth: need a couple

00:59:13.165 --> 00:59:13.775
more years.

00:59:13.905 --> 00:59:14.145
Yeah,

00:59:14.205 --> 00:59:18.035
Olivia: They have this kind of shirts
for symphony, but they're something

00:59:18.035 --> 00:59:20.125
like 30, 000 dollars a piece.

00:59:21.455 --> 00:59:23.965
Elizabeth: I know there's some of
those orchestras where they've they've

00:59:23.974 --> 00:59:30.025
used that technology so people can
respond to a conductor through haptics.

00:59:30.855 --> 00:59:31.825
Olivia: Oh, wow.

00:59:32.385 --> 00:59:36.275
Elizabeth: Yeah, 'cause like the downbeat
will feel will feel it in their body

00:59:36.325 --> 00:59:42.915
with a haptic, and there's not much delay
because it's everything's kind of close

00:59:42.915 --> 00:59:46.265
together in the same physical space,
so it doesn't have to travel very far.

00:59:47.655 --> 00:59:51.855
So I know there's stuff like that,
but also you are accomplishing

00:59:51.905 --> 00:59:54.925
so much so well, it makes
sense to not add more layers.

00:59:54.965 --> 00:59:55.745
I'd be curious.

00:59:57.085 --> 01:00:03.175
I feel like, um, Andy especially, Carmen
probably too, Carmen's just so busy.

01:00:03.175 --> 01:00:05.945
I haven't had as many conversations
with Carmen about this stuff.

01:00:07.145 --> 01:00:11.375
I wonder if Andy would have some
ideas for you in terms of what needed

01:00:11.465 --> 01:00:14.295
to be modified and what doesn't.

01:00:15.215 --> 01:00:23.335
Because Andy worked on the audio
description for the Tuba Thieves,

01:00:23.475 --> 01:00:27.285
that movie that just premiered at
Sundance, that's like an experimental

01:00:27.285 --> 01:00:28.505
film for the deaf community.

01:00:28.505 --> 01:00:28.545
Oh,

01:00:28.545 --> 01:00:29.155
Olivia: Oh, The Tuba Thieves.

01:00:29.155 --> 01:00:29.960
Yeah, saw that.

01:00:30.200 --> 01:00:33.840
Elizabeth: And Andy was telling me
that it was really interesting because

01:00:34.520 --> 01:00:40.950
there was so much sound already
that he, and I think his wife worked

01:00:40.950 --> 01:00:46.130
on it together, they decided not
to over describe a lot of things.

01:00:46.170 --> 01:00:50.180
Like if you heard an airplane,
there's no point in also telling

01:00:50.180 --> 01:00:51.570
you that there was an airplane.

01:00:52.030 --> 01:00:52.310
Olivia: Right.

01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:56.980
Elizabeth: So like he was advocating
for minimalistic description,

01:00:56.990 --> 01:00:58.580
like as little as you needed.

01:00:59.040 --> 01:01:04.665
So I wondered if, if this would be a
great, like, maybe you could give a

01:01:06.175 --> 01:01:11.825
perspective on whatever Andy's doing,
um, in terms of accessibility for folks

01:01:12.125 --> 01:01:16.765
anywhere from the hard of hearing to
deaf kind of spectrum, and then Andy

01:01:16.795 --> 01:01:18.275
could give you some advice on the.

01:01:18.930 --> 01:01:19.440
Olivia: Yeah.

01:01:20.150 --> 01:01:20.490
Yeah.

01:01:20.490 --> 01:01:23.780
Well, he has heard, um, he has
heard my, um, pieces because

01:01:23.780 --> 01:01:25.540
we were both at ThoughtWorks.

01:01:25.600 --> 01:01:26.180
Elizabeth: Oh, that's right.

01:01:26.180 --> 01:01:27.069
Yeah.

01:01:27.150 --> 01:01:32.270
It was an odd residency because you
weren't always like in a physical, I

01:01:32.270 --> 01:01:35.205
didn't know how much you interacted
on that one because it sounds like

01:01:35.205 --> 01:01:38.550
it's like a digital residency.

01:01:38.550 --> 01:01:41.659
. 
Olivia: He was really
excited about the sound.

01:01:41.689 --> 01:01:41.949
Elizabeth: Yeah.

01:01:41.970 --> 01:01:43.770
Olivia: That's his that's his turf.

01:01:44.190 --> 01:01:51.470
So, but, um, yeah, again, that's really
great to ask Andy to weigh in on the

01:01:51.510 --> 01:01:54.700
Elizabeth: honestly, all of
you have all of the turf.

01:01:54.950 --> 01:01:57.820
It is so hard to draw
lines around your projects.

01:01:57.880 --> 01:02:01.100
When I have to try to explain
what y'all are doing in short

01:02:01.100 --> 01:02:03.290
sound bites, I cannot do it.

01:02:04.850 --> 01:02:07.650
Because if you explain all the things,
then it starts sounding like there's

01:02:07.660 --> 01:02:11.130
all this overlap because you're
all being so multimedia and cool.

01:02:11.820 --> 01:02:13.880
And I'm like, yep, they're, they're great.

01:02:14.720 --> 01:02:16.620
[Olivia laughing]

01:02:19.740 --> 01:02:20.730
It'll be wonderful.

01:02:21.520 --> 01:02:22.690
Go to the exhibition.

01:02:23.720 --> 01:02:25.230
Olivia: Yeah, I'm really excited.

01:02:25.230 --> 01:02:28.870
I, you know, in the beginning of
this, I was really kind of unsure

01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:33.880
how, how, um, all this miasmic idea,
I mean, for me personally, this

01:02:33.890 --> 01:02:36.350
miasmic idea is gonna play out.

01:02:36.420 --> 01:02:40.510
And Ellen, Ellen from ThoughtWorks
really was a big part in helping me,

01:02:40.520 --> 01:02:46.240
in guiding me, um, You know, because
I just need to have someone seeing

01:02:46.240 --> 01:02:48.260
it from outside of the box, but

01:02:49.400 --> 01:02:49.710
right.

01:02:49.770 --> 01:02:50.570
Elizabeth: Absolutely.

01:02:50.610 --> 01:02:55.080
I mean, you've got so
many ideas happening.

01:02:55.080 --> 01:02:58.630
And when you were initially describing
it to me, it was hard to picture how

01:02:58.640 --> 01:03:00.950
all of these things can happen together.

01:03:00.950 --> 01:03:04.870
But you found a way to do that.

01:03:04.910 --> 01:03:08.340
Like it's once you experienced
it, you're like, Oh yeah.

01:03:08.450 --> 01:03:09.090
Okay.

01:03:09.630 --> 01:03:10.400
So I, I think.

01:03:10.900 --> 01:03:13.810
No, I mean, this is, this is
going in a really great direction

01:03:13.810 --> 01:03:15.240
and you're a lot farther.

01:03:15.240 --> 01:03:18.290
I mean, this is a ridiculous sentence
for me to say, but you're a lot

01:03:18.290 --> 01:03:20.040
farther along than I expected.

01:03:21.560 --> 01:03:24.120
Because, you know, I know all of you.

01:03:24.850 --> 01:03:28.400
A lot of the art, I think all of you
I'm just gonna say all of you have at

01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:32.810
times like felt like you're behind, or
am I going to be there, am I going to

01:03:32.810 --> 01:03:34.370
hit the thing, but no, I mean this is.

01:03:35.270 --> 01:03:36.220
This is great.

01:03:36.750 --> 01:03:42.350
Um, do you want to chat, it has
been, it is like after two here

01:03:42.440 --> 01:03:42.510
so

01:03:42.510 --> 01:03:44.520
Olivia: Yeah, so sorry,
I ate up your time.

01:03:45.330 --> 01:03:48.650
Elizabeth: No, no, no, I just wanted to,
I have, I actually have some time because

01:03:48.650 --> 01:03:54.360
my next thing is three something, so
I'm hanging out in my really really ugly

01:03:54.370 --> 01:03:58.780
off-, actually, my office is beautiful
but this part of my office is not.

01:03:59.490 --> 01:04:00.300
So that's weird.

01:04:00.310 --> 01:04:03.960
I'm going to have to find a
better like angle for future ones.

01:04:04.710 --> 01:04:10.460
Um, but if you have a minute, do you
want to talk about, uh, artifact stuff?

01:04:12.110 --> 01:04:12.380
Olivia: Yeah.

01:04:12.380 --> 01:04:12.840
Okay.

01:04:13.340 --> 01:04:15.680
Elizabeth: I just, I didn't
know if you had any questions.

01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:16.340
Oh, I do.

01:04:17.485 --> 01:04:19.325
Okay, I'll have to go in like 8 minutes.

01:04:20.175 --> 01:04:21.635
I forgot I have to walk to this thing.

01:04:21.965 --> 01:04:25.535
But yeah, I mean, do you, do you have
any anxieties or questions about it

01:04:25.545 --> 01:04:27.115
or anything I can answer on that?

01:04:27.455 --> 01:04:27.855
Olivia: Well,

01:04:27.905 --> 01:04:31.975
um, I'll just share my screen
again because all the, you

01:04:31.975 --> 01:04:33.415
know, we've talked about, um.

01:04:33.425 --> 01:04:33.755
Elizabeth: Yeah, you

01:04:33.755 --> 01:04:37.025
have such like a good process with
keeping everything, which is why I

01:04:37.025 --> 01:04:38.815
have not checked in with you so much.

01:04:39.205 --> 01:04:41.965
Because even like these diagrams are gold.

01:04:43.785 --> 01:04:44.525
Olivia: Yeah, yeah.

01:04:44.525 --> 01:04:47.765
So, you know, as you can
see, I've got these folders.

01:04:47.805 --> 01:04:51.015
And, um, so I'm working with the CMAT.

01:04:51.035 --> 01:04:54.075
This is the Center New Music Technology.

01:04:54.435 --> 01:04:56.535
And then, um, the ThoughtWorks residency.

01:04:56.535 --> 01:05:01.275
I, um, so I have folders of
everything I've ever done.

01:05:01.305 --> 01:05:04.065
The projection test, this is my first one.

01:05:04.065 --> 01:05:04.724
Elizabeth: You

01:05:04.725 --> 01:05:06.255
are so organized.

01:05:06.255 --> 01:05:07.295
Olivia: (inaudible) All that stuff.

01:05:08.935 --> 01:05:12.655
Well, no, it's a habit, you know, 10
years of working in design, you need

01:05:12.665 --> 01:05:14.655
to, you need to know where your shit is.

01:05:15.745 --> 01:05:15.835
Elizabeth: You would

01:05:16.115 --> 01:05:20.245
think so, but I'm just going to
tell you, working with a variety of

01:05:20.245 --> 01:05:24.205
artists in a variety of fields over
time, not everyone is this organized,

01:05:24.225 --> 01:05:26.615
you are a, an academic's dream.

01:05:26.725 --> 01:05:31.875
[Olivia laughing] I don't have
to do much at all and I could

01:05:31.875 --> 01:05:33.445
learn so much about your process.

01:05:35.155 --> 01:05:37.035
So are you thinking once you're

01:05:37.035 --> 01:05:41.635
Olivia: (inaudible) it plays in

01:05:41.655 --> 01:05:45.264
terms of like, uh, I have a video of it.

01:05:45.265 --> 01:05:49.295
I do actually, you know, so
I even have the original, uh,

01:05:50.695 --> 01:05:53.625
so this is Zana conducting.

01:05:53.625 --> 01:05:55.684
So that's the original footage.

01:05:57.575 --> 01:05:57.895
Elizabeth: Oh

01:05:57.895 --> 01:05:59.735
my goodness, all the

01:06:01.035 --> 01:06:01.215
stages

01:06:01.215 --> 01:06:05.635
Olivia: So that's her, and then, you
know, what have Zana signing  Ode to Joy.

01:06:05.635 --> 01:06:12.575
Then I apply the stuff that that and
then and then, you know, put it in.

01:06:12.915 --> 01:06:16.205
So everything I've ever
done is here somewhere.

01:06:16.265 --> 01:06:18.445
This is my friend conducting.

01:06:18.945 --> 01:06:19.435
And

01:06:20.545 --> 01:06:27.745
Elizabeth: so the one thing we'll have
to keep an eye on Um, is that anything

01:06:27.745 --> 01:06:30.815
you want to put on Ground Works, we'll
want to go back and make sure we get

01:06:30.835 --> 01:06:36.055
some consent documents for anybody
involved, but you've kept really

01:06:36.055 --> 01:06:39.665
good track of your collaborators, so
that probably won't be hard to do.

01:06:40.415 --> 01:06:41.195
Um,

01:06:42.735 --> 01:06:47.320
Olivia: um,  there's some pretty
specific people, you know, so I

01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:51.130
can, I know, it's not like we have
those old photograph, historical

01:06:51.130 --> 01:06:52.485
photograph and I can't find them.

01:06:52.840 --> 01:06:53.290
I think

01:06:53.670 --> 01:06:54.030
that was

01:06:54.030 --> 01:06:57.690
Elizabeth: well, and we said,
we said 10 artifacts, but um,

01:06:57.720 --> 01:06:59.100
it can be as many as you want.

01:06:59.130 --> 01:07:03.630
We were just like picking a number, like
here's a ballpark so people can start.

01:07:04.160 --> 01:07:08.060
So like, as much of this as
you want, um, as little of it

01:07:08.060 --> 01:07:10.385
as you want, we can do that.

01:07:11.825 --> 01:07:13.775
Olivia: Great, I'm sorry, I
think I'm missing something.

01:07:13.805 --> 01:07:14.055
Elizabeth: What?

01:07:14.205 --> 01:07:15.215
Oh, I'm sorry.

01:07:15.895 --> 01:07:18.815
I jumped from 1 topic to the
next so fast that my brain

01:07:18.815 --> 01:07:19.965
didn't even keep up with myself.

01:07:19.965 --> 01:07:26.605
So, yeah, we had originally, the thing
that we proposed to y'all in January

01:07:26.625 --> 01:07:31.245
before all of us got sidetracked and
readjusting to the number of people in the

01:07:31.630 --> 01:07:36.530
cohort, um, we had originally,
or that that proposal was for 10

01:07:36.540 --> 01:07:38.750
artifacts, but it can be more.

01:07:39.700 --> 01:07:41.950
That was more just like a floor.

01:07:42.580 --> 01:07:45.310
Like we, we would like
people to find at least 10.

01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:49.950
So, as much of this as you want hosted
on Ground Works, as little of it,

01:07:51.165 --> 01:07:53.725
totally up to you, but this is fantastic.

01:07:53.725 --> 01:07:59.815
Like, if if a scholar was to come in and
study how you work, or if another artist,

01:08:00.005 --> 01:08:04.255
maybe a disabled artist or a deaf artist
wanted to come in and learn about it,

01:08:04.790 --> 01:08:08.270
like, they would get, they'd be able
to piece together a lot about your

01:08:08.270 --> 01:08:10.040
process and creativity from this.

01:08:10.260 --> 01:08:12.350
So you've already built
a gorgeous archive.

01:08:13.100 --> 01:08:16.960
Olivia: Well, you know what, I think,
um, you know, at the, at the end of it,

01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:21.710
I could use some help in curating, so-
called, picking out the stuff, because

01:08:22.170 --> 01:08:26.660
I have a lot of stuff, obviously, you
know, but, you know, um, if you guys

01:08:26.660 --> 01:08:28.510
could help me streamline what to do.

01:08:28.510 --> 01:08:29.510
Elizabeth: Absolutely.

01:08:30.170 --> 01:08:32.546
We'll help you with all that access too.

01:08:32.546 --> 01:08:38.345
So like, if when you need, like, if you
have video and we need to describe it

01:08:38.355 --> 01:08:43.965
for blind folks or what, we can, we have
funds, we can do all of that work and

01:08:43.965 --> 01:08:48.815
you can approve it or, you know, you can
you can do the access stuff if you have

01:08:48.815 --> 01:08:50.455
a preference for how you do it, but.

01:08:51.065 --> 01:08:54.965
Um, we even have someone that we'll be
paying who's a digital accessibility

01:08:54.995 --> 01:09:00.715
consultant who works on like cultural
accessibility too, to make sure

01:09:00.715 --> 01:09:04.355
that it's not just like checking
boxes, but is culturally accessible

01:09:04.355 --> 01:09:05.505
for people with disabilities.

01:09:05.665 --> 01:09:06.475
So, yeah.

01:09:07.435 --> 01:09:08.375
We'll have you covered on

01:09:08.375 --> 01:09:08.715
that.

01:09:09.595 --> 01:09:09.995
Olivia: Okay.

01:09:10.235 --> 01:09:10.705
All right.

01:09:10.885 --> 01:09:11.265
Great.

01:09:11.295 --> 01:09:11.485
Elizabeth: Yeah.

01:09:12.145 --> 01:09:12.985
Thank you so much.

01:09:12.995 --> 01:09:14.965
I probably should run,
but this was amazing.

01:09:14.975 --> 01:09:16.785
Thank you for showing me all of your work.

01:09:16.795 --> 01:09:20.365
I cannot wait to see the final
versions because like, this is already,

01:09:21.105 --> 01:09:22.525
Seriously, I was over here dying.

01:09:22.525 --> 01:09:25.025
I was like, Oh, I want to show this
to this person, this person, this

01:09:25.055 --> 01:09:26.135
person, like, they're going to love it.

01:09:26.175 --> 01:09:28.865
So I'm so excited.

01:09:29.935 --> 01:09:30.205
It's a.

01:09:31.505 --> 01:09:33.955
It's beautiful , I should stop gushing

01:09:33.955 --> 01:09:34.395
I'm excited because

01:09:34.395 --> 01:09:37.685
Olivia: it's community that
it's, it's it's, um, allowing

01:09:37.685 --> 01:09:40.845
me to reach out to also, uh.

01:09:40.965 --> 01:09:43.905
You know, for so long I've just been
kind of like working in my little

01:09:43.995 --> 01:09:49.965
fogs, well, uh, you know, you know,
I, I just don't know where to to, to,

01:09:49.965 --> 01:09:54.665
to reach out to folks who are ahead
of hearing but are, are musically

01:09:54.725 --> 01:09:56.975
inclined or work with sound and

01:09:57.185 --> 01:10:01.855
and music in particular, because Stinson
Kim does work with music, but you know,

01:10:02.085 --> 01:10:02.335
Elizabeth: but in a

01:10:02.335 --> 01:10:08.235
very particular way, you know, like the
way that you're working with music is

01:10:08.235 --> 01:10:12.145
very different than honestly anybody
that I've seen, but this is going to

01:10:12.155 --> 01:10:17.175
be a giant, kind of like a signal flare
where maybe you're out on the ocean

01:10:17.265 --> 01:10:21.345
in a boat on your own, but like this
piece is going to go out there into

01:10:21.345 --> 01:10:23.115
the world and people will find you.

01:10:23.585 --> 01:10:25.285
Um, cause it's, it's gorgeous.

01:10:26.025 --> 01:10:26.545
Olivia: Oh, wonderful.

01:10:26.555 --> 01:10:27.815
Oh, thank you.

01:10:27.845 --> 01:10:28.635
Thank you.

01:10:28.635 --> 01:10:29.914
so much.

01:10:29.915 --> 01:10:33.025
Imposter syndrome is
like slightly alleviated.

01:10:34.085 --> 01:10:37.515
Elizabeth: I'm just going to tell
you, I don't know that it helps, but

01:10:37.515 --> 01:10:39.445
I live with that every single day.

01:10:41.345 --> 01:10:48.785
And honestly, either we're all imposters,
or we're all just really confused because

01:10:48.815 --> 01:10:53.155
it seems like every great person I
talked to, I mean, I've been organizing

01:10:53.155 --> 01:10:57.775
these artist residencies as part of
another project here at Virginia Tech.

01:10:58.390 --> 01:11:03.470
And it takes me weeks to work up
the courage to email people, because

01:11:03.470 --> 01:11:05.410
I'm like, this person is a big deal.

01:11:05.630 --> 01:11:07.090
They are a huge deal.

01:11:07.470 --> 01:11:10.760
And then when I email them,
they're like, Oh, my goodness.

01:11:10.850 --> 01:11:12.000
I'm so honored.

01:11:12.060 --> 01:11:15.180
Uh, I've had people tell me that
we're paying them too much money.

01:11:15.840 --> 01:11:18.930
Um, I've had, which is not true.

01:11:19.470 --> 01:11:23.400
Um, I've had people that I respect
that are very big disabled musicians

01:11:23.410 --> 01:11:27.000
with a big public profile be
like for that amount of money,

01:11:27.040 --> 01:11:31.100
I want to do 10 events for you in
week one and 10 events in week two.

01:11:31.540 --> 01:11:32.960
And I'm just looking at them like.

01:11:34.150 --> 01:11:37.160
Okay, I'll schedule those and
then we'll cancel a bunch of them.

01:11:37.160 --> 01:11:41.360
So you don't work yourself to death
because you don't need to do that.

01:11:41.370 --> 01:11:49.185
Like, we're all, um, and some of that
is just, You know, it's also gender and

01:11:49.185 --> 01:11:55.515
race too, not just disability, but like,
we constantly are told that disabled

01:11:55.525 --> 01:11:57.245
people don't belong in these spaces.

01:11:57.245 --> 01:12:00.835
And it's impossible for those messages
to not get inside of us sometimes,

01:12:00.915 --> 01:12:02.995
but it is, it is so not true.

01:12:02.995 --> 01:12:06.255
Um, this is glorious.

01:12:06.445 --> 01:12:11.045
Like I, I cannot wait to be able to
like teach this in classes and put

01:12:11.045 --> 01:12:16.105
it in textbooks and like shove it in
people's faces when they laugh at me,

01:12:16.105 --> 01:12:19.105
when I tell them I work on disabled
art, because it's so brilliant.

01:12:19.155 --> 01:12:19.415
Like it.

01:12:20.460 --> 01:12:24.740
I just feel like it'll be hard for people
to deny that this is great art, and

01:12:24.740 --> 01:12:26.310
they need to shut up and listen to us.

01:12:27.410 --> 01:12:28.250
Olivia: Yeah,

01:12:28.250 --> 01:12:30.920
Elizabeth: I mean, I have petty
reasons to support your art, in other

01:12:30.980 --> 01:12:31.032
words.

01:12:31.032 --> 01:12:33.390
Olivia: Beethoven's art, that's what
I was analyzing Beethoven, I feel

01:12:33.390 --> 01:12:34.579
like.

01:12:35.360 --> 01:12:37.140
Elizabeth: Well, that's the thing,
when they talk about it, they're just

01:12:37.140 --> 01:12:41.670
like, oh yeah, so he was losing his
hearing, so he wanted to, You know,

01:12:41.680 --> 01:12:43.480
hurt himself or he wanted to die.

01:12:43.490 --> 01:12:48.700
And I'm like, wow, you did not read
the same document that I read like.

01:12:48.900 --> 01:12:51.490
Oh, they drive me up a wall.

01:12:51.490 --> 01:12:57.365
But we are, we are
winning And this piece is

01:12:57.365 --> 01:13:02.340
Olivia: Well you know I think the
technology is helping us, you know, VR

01:13:02.360 --> 01:13:07.675
is a very powerful thing but I think
There's hurdles of understanding how

01:13:07.675 --> 01:13:10.055
to, the expectation of that medium.

01:13:10.355 --> 01:13:13.975
Cause when I played around with VR,
everybody thought it was a game.

01:13:13.975 --> 01:13:15.335
I'm like, no, it's not a game.

01:13:15.335 --> 01:13:16.855
It's just a freaking experience.

01:13:16.855 --> 01:13:17.235
You know?

01:13:17.555 --> 01:13:20.255
So everybody, they put it on, they're
like, what am I supposed to do?

01:13:20.255 --> 01:13:20.945
Am I supposed to

01:13:21.895 --> 01:13:26.905
like,(inaudible) and do
I have to get up now?

01:13:26.905 --> 01:13:28.364
Like no, just let it play!

01:13:28.665 --> 01:13:32.615
Elizabeth: We should put a
camera on people that will,

01:13:32.615 --> 01:13:36.345
like, sign a waiver, just to see
what they do when they walk in.

01:13:37.075 --> 01:13:39.725
Because now I'm thinking that, like,
when people walk into the exhibit,

01:13:39.735 --> 01:13:43.370
there will be a type of person that
starts poking at the screens, and

01:13:43.370 --> 01:13:45.345
it's amazing to catch on camera.

01:13:48.165 --> 01:13:49.195
Oh, my gosh.

01:13:50.055 --> 01:13:50.925
I love that.

01:13:50.925 --> 01:13:52.995
I unfortunately have to
go, but this is great.

01:13:53.270 --> 01:13:54.130
Olivia: Okay, thank you.

01:13:54.130 --> 01:13:57.460
Elizabeth: So please feel free to use
that link anytime you want to chat.

01:13:57.460 --> 01:13:59.840
I basically always want to
chat when y'all are free.

01:14:00.330 --> 01:14:03.190
I just always feel bad about
bothering you because I also don't

01:14:03.190 --> 01:14:04.800
want to interrupt the creativity.

01:14:06.480 --> 01:14:10.710
Olivia: I need to like, I need to
kind of form it a little bit more so

01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:14.850
I came to this one like feeling like
I'm totally all over the place but I

01:14:14.850 --> 01:14:18.770
feel like now I can sort of shape it,
and it'll be something more substantial

01:14:19.190 --> 01:14:21.000
for you to comment on the next meeting.

01:14:21.190 --> 01:14:24.230
(inaudible) next week
too so hopefully that

01:14:24.310 --> 01:14:27.950
Elizabeth: awesome and I'll send you
a list of like the people I mentioned,

01:14:27.970 --> 01:14:31.870
and why I mentioned them in case if
you want introductions to anybody.

01:14:31.870 --> 01:14:32.760
Olivia: Okay, fantastic.

01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:34.720
Elizabeth: Or if you want to Google them.

01:14:34.770 --> 01:14:37.900
not that you need them, but just
it's mostly me being like, Oh

01:14:37.910 --> 01:14:40.900
my gosh, these people would love
to see and talk to this person.

01:14:42.100 --> 01:14:42.590
Olivia: Okay.

01:14:43.300 --> 01:14:43.660
Elizabeth: Yeah,

01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:44.380
but I'll,

01:14:44.810 --> 01:14:49.720
Olivia: I'm also gonna, I would love to
somehow have a conversation with Robert

01:14:49.740 --> 01:14:50.550
Wallace as well.

01:14:50.570 --> 01:14:53.570
Elizabeth: Yeah, I just wrote it on
another post it note which is green

01:14:53.590 --> 01:14:55.320
because green is the CripTech color.

01:14:57.430 --> 01:14:59.820
No, seriously, everything
is color coded over here.

01:15:00.690 --> 01:15:06.030
So I will reach out to him and double
check where I sent it because I'm

01:15:06.460 --> 01:15:09.410
very suspicious that a different R.

01:15:09.410 --> 01:15:10.580
Wallace got that email.

01:15:11.260 --> 01:15:12.090
Olivia: Oh, no.

01:15:14.630 --> 01:15:15.320
Elizabeth: Oh, goodness.

01:15:15.370 --> 01:15:16.010
Well, thank you.

01:15:16.060 --> 01:15:16.950
So good to see you.

01:15:16.950 --> 01:15:19.417
I hope you have a good weekend.

01:15:19.417 --> 01:15:19.637
Okay, you too.

01:15:19.727 --> 01:15:20.337
Thank you.

01:15:20.337 --> 01:15:20.467
Bye..